Can you get away from a big hand preflop?

[Fenrir]

Played in a tourney earlier today, it was a £10+£1 buy in.

Still 10 players, I get dealt QQ in mid position.

Guy1 in first position raises to 3x the blind, Guy2 to my right reraises to 8x the blind.

I sit there saying to myself thats a KK or AA raise. But I had enough chips to take a flop. Flop 8s6s3c.

He pushed all in on the flop. Now I felt I had to call with the overpair incase he was on flush draw.

I said to myself during the hand about 3 times hes got KK or AA yet I kept clicking the call button. So he shows AA and im knocked out.

The question is should I have folded preflop even though I had a monster hand. I would have to be 100% sure he has KK or AA dont I?

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by Fenrir

Still 10 players, I get dealt QQ in mid position.

Guy1 in first position raises to 3x the blind, Guy2 to my right reraises to 8x the blind.

The QQ although a premium hand - suddenly becomes very precarious after a raise from early position and then quite a large re-raise from early/mid position - at best your facing at least someone with an Ace in their hand, possibly Ace-King or at worst your looking at someone with pocket Aces or Kings.

So really you are looking at an either 50/50 race your pair versus their overcards, or you are a major underdog to Aces or Kings.

I probably would of folded here if it was in the early or mid part of the tournament - not worth risking your chips. Better to let a premium hand go and make a big laydown rather than risk your exit from the tournament.

Originally Posted by Fenrir

I sit there saying to myself thats a KK or AA raise. But I had enough chips to take a flop. Flop 8s6s3c.

He pushed all in on the flop. Now I felt I had to call with the overpair incase he was on flush draw.

Now they won't of hit anything on the flop, so your left with the options that he already has you beat with Ace's or King's or that he still has two overcards and is trying to make a continuation bet here.

You have to go with your instincts on your reads - if you feel he has Ace's or King's then get out of it - from the pre-flop activity it certainly backs your instinct up.

Originally Posted by Fenrir

I said to myself during the hand about 3 times hes got KK or AA yet I kept clicking the call button. So he shows AA and im knocked out.

The question is should I have folded preflop even though I had a monster hand. I would have to be 100% sure he has KK or AA dont I?

No - you don't need to be 100% sure - you want to avoid all risk early on in a tournament, so you don't have to know for sure he has Ace's or Kings to fold Queens - you can afford to just fold this hand pre-flop and wait for a better opportunity.

When you get shortstacked (less than 5 x BB+SB) and its getting later on in the tournament thats when your happy to take your 50/50 races and take a bit more risk, but early on your aim is to stay alive and build your pot when you hit your hands.

The way I would look at the above hand is that even though you had Queens it was a bit of a similar situation to a small or mid pocket pair - where you were fairly sure you opponent at least has overcards to yourself so to be certain of winning you would need to hit trips to win the hand will only an 8-1 chance.

Funnily enough - I went out of a tournament last night with Queens and my opponent turned over Ace's - We had just gone to the final table and I was pretty low on chips with about 4 times BB+SB+Antes so I had to push with Queens and a guy who had limped in from early position called and flipped over Ace's

[Fenrir]

Thanks for the info Professor.

Yeah I do that play with Aces all the time in multi's. Call and wait for the raise.

[Tigerstripe]

Reraising gets me and an overpair turns practically into a liability with the potential rush of cards coming around the river. Sometimes i have the stomach for it. Sometime I am not in the mood.

[rowena105]

Everything the Professor says is absolutely the best way to look at it.

However, there is one thing that they can't teach you in any courses or in any books you read on poker and that is Gut Feeling. Many a hand was made on a gut feeling. When you are sitting there an saying to yourself he has AA or KK that is the gut telling you to fold, fold, fold.

Think of it this way. Let's say you folded pre-flop and he shows the AA aren't you a happy camper. Even after the flop when you see no AK on the flop the best thing to do is to check and see what he does... because the gut tells you so... and if he bets big then fold. The only thing you have lost is your ante and raise but you live to see another hand and who knows they could be AA or KK and then you get it all back.

Most of the "old" meaning longtime players get an instinct for the cards and a lot of their playing is done on that. Do you think they all read all these books about pot odds, etc. Nope, they have experienced it for a lifetime and the instict is natural. When someone says to me I'm "POT COMMITTED" I tell them they are a fool. You are NEVER NEVER NEVER pot committed. You always have the option to fold and make a comeback. I have been down to 150 chips in my stack and have come back to either win the tournament or at least make the money. No one ever is forced to go all in.

[aceswild]

Thanks for asking this question. I have the hardest time and one of the areas that I am still struggling with. These tips are going to help a lot.

[kentox]

this is where more knowledge of the players helps..

you wouldn't want to play more than a medium sized pot with an unimproved overpair unless you were against particularly loose/aggressive losing players..

against tight players, its a clear fold..